Hi Bill

What you describe is exactly what we do, but not making kites and rigs.
YACs, Rural Connect, schools, archaeology societies etc.
It is the basis of our Charitable Trust:
http://www.armadale.org.uk/wlat.htm

The kids are not usually the problem but the adults responsible for them, hence our new page:
http://www.armadale.org.uk/aerialtechniquesforchildren.htm
Kids much younger than 10 can handle kites, see:
http://www.armadale.org.uk/cairnpapple.htm
With very young children party balloons and keyring cameras are safer as they will not fly away if dropped:
http://www.armadale.org.uk/balloonphotography.htm


how many kites could be expected to fly together without tangling?
One ;o)
But we normally fly a maximum of 5:

but with some tethered!

Generally we stick to two or three on a small site with no more than two mobile:

(image by Jim Knowles)

Bill

If you intend buying kites for community use, you may wish to consider registering yourself with a wholesaler, or just argue a discount. I buy our kites in quantities of 6. I have just ordered three HQ Power Sled 1.0s (and three more 1.7s) to see if they will fly the HD 808#16D on a coat hanger wire arrangement.

With the 808 camera, I am aiming for roughly a 'U' shape with one side longer than the other. The base of the U, which is straight, has the line wrapped around it, with the sides hanging down, the longest arm acting as a pendulum. I will attach the camera to the short arm with a safety line to the kite line. Everything depends on the length and weight of the wire. Here is a mockup with two tent pegs and the camera on the left:

http://www.armadale.org.uk/aerialtechniquesforchildren.htm

I like the HQ Power Sled 1.7 as a small kite and the Premier Kites 14 is OK.
At a guess, I would say that I have bought well over 30 kites in the last 12 months.

My wife, Rosie, uses a builders belt to clip the reel onto. Something similar is a possibility with kids.....if the kite is not too large!!!

Can you get still shots from it?

The software http://www.mytempfiles.info/nr16/Nr16Setup.zip indicates interval times of 0.25 to 60 seconds but I just shoot video and select frames as there is no resolution advantage, exactly as we do with the thermal imagers. (The manual http://www.armadale.org.uk/808manual.pdf
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5bktfT6e84&feature=youtu.be

I have seen too many collapses!

So many people say that but I have never found it a problem. Very rarely, I have had a fibreglass rod poke through which can cause a catastrophic shear to the ground. Maybe a lot of kite flying is done in variable winds?!

Our first KAP flight was with a Rok made by Rosie's aunt, then a kite flier with the Golden Valley Kite Fliers down in Gloucestershire, where we lived before coming to Scotland.

Let me know if you find a good small Rok.

Thanks for all the advice John, The West Lothian Archaeological Trust is just awesome at involving kids. I'm always impressed.

@hobbiestoomany great idea on the camera phones, same goes for phones labeled "Bad IMEI" (can't get on the network) although those are often stolen.

For cameras, I like the Canon SD series and a rubber band over the shutter-- no software for kids to fool with, but you can also move to CHDK. The older canons-- SD 600 and the like, are available on ebay for around $35. In full sunlight the results are still quite good, better than even recent phone cameras. The autoKAP is nice, but a PET bottle rig is super light weight, and the kids can build them themselves for free.

If you're going to workshop a cheap auto rig, try the silly putty and rubber band rig:
Details here.



Our software can help you do the mosaics with the kids in an easily sharable way, and their maps can end up in Google Earth & MapsMapknitter.org
We also just implemented map annotations.



Hmm... iframe embedding isn't showing up for me-- can you see the videos maps?

Blakebill--
we don't do the simple auto-montage-- its hard to implement in web browser without killing our server resources. But you can montage a photoset and then upload it to Mapknitter to handle all the Gdal/tiling necessary to make it a georeferenced image.

Thanks for the links, I have inclueded them in a proposal and it looks like this is a live one!

http://ousewasheslps.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/high-in-the-sky-heritage-landscape-photography-from-above/

Mathew, I'll stick to PTGui and Pshop for the montages. If we end up doing a number of sites across a wide territory ( looks likely) georeferencing will be a must.

I want the photomaps to be pin sharp so despite the huge weight /cost benefit of the HD808#16 the test image John posted is grim from the mapping point of view ( fisheye distortion and a lot of fringe aberration) and the recycling 'win' of old phone cameras will get me into inevitable multiple reso problems!

I think a batch of eBay sourced Canon Ixuses (hopefully the same model- one with image stab would be good!) will be the camera of choice.

I have outlined a programme of rig building ( a fixed nadir and a Simon Harbord Silly Putty) and KAP flying that should generate some decent habitat mapping which, when repeated, will show seasonal change and rotate tasks so everyone 'gets a go' at the fun stuff.

I'm going to go with 2 kites to give us Bft 3-4 operability. Both from Didak: a 6mm GF sparred 1.2m Rok and an Explorer 1.2. Testing will follow once I have got the prototype rigs built and have abetter idea of how much lift I'll need. I want to keep the kites small for small hands to fly!

What larks!

B

Let me suggest a different approach. If you want high quality images then you will have to do them yourself. You have the skill and equipment and you have put in hundreds of hours to hone your craft. Not wishing to undermine John's enthusiasm for letting people have a go I personally think that showing people how to use aerial imagery (once captured) is a better approach. Lets face it they can look at Google Earth for free and once they have an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of different formats of aerial image they will see more from whatever source material they have access to. I think that it is important to demonstrate KAP but I would be cautious about giving the impression that anyone can do it. I would think that most of us have had to work at it before we got images worth sharing and I often wonder how many people have a go and then give up before they are successful.

Reading imagery and mapping I think are better skills to teach, particularly if you use open source software. You can then give people both skills and resources; therefore substantial legacy skills (currently what the box tickers want to see).

Open source GIS like QuantumGIS is great. It has a good georeferencing tool and uses shape files as its native file type. If your aim is for the project results to enhance local HER's this should be ideal for producing HER compliant data. You can also use the OS opendata mapping as a background. QGIS also has a neat open layers plugin that lets you see your mapping against Google Earth although you have to be careful about using different CRS (Coordinate Reference Systems) you can also use this as an accurate guide for georeferencing.

If all this sounds interesting you might want to have a look at a not for profit, open content manual, that I have produced for community groups http://community.meerstone.co.uk/. This is underpinned by the use of opensource software so that groups have all the tools needed to produce the same standard of record as professional archaeologists. I also offer GIS training for community archaeology / heritage projects.

I know this post has taken a different course to the other replies and I have not set out to undermine their ideas (I apologise if anyone thinks that). I have had a reasonable amount of experience, and success, in running community archaeology projects, including getting a highly commended in the British Archaeology Awards. I have therefore seen how learned skills can be used beyond a single project. I have a local amateur archaeology group who now run their own projects and invite me along as a volunteer. That's good feedback.

Anyway whatever route you take let me know if you need any more information.

Martin

This is a fantastic discussion. I've been working on a project - now two related projects - that could be considered community KAP in the sense that John is talking about. In the past I worked on another project more similar to what Martin is talking about. In parallel with this I've been pursuing another aspect of KAP that has turned into a combination of both Martin's and John's takes on the topic. It gets off the theme of community KAP to some degree, but I'll share it here anyway. Please bear with me.

Here's what happened: I've been trying to push my photography - in the air and on the ground - to create better photos. At the same time my younger daughter, who's all of seven years old, is getting interested in photography. We both need time in the field to pursue photography, so we often work side-by-side. Keeping what she's doing and what I'm doing separate has been... tricky.

Any time you push a creative process, it's inherently frustrating because it amounts to raising your expectations beyond your ability to create until your skills have increased enough to meet them. Almost always this process includes comparing your work to that of others who already have the skills you're trying to develop. The trick is to have enough of a vested interest in the pursuit to know that all the hard work is worth it.

This is the opposite to the approach that's required to interest someone in the creative pursuit in the first place. If I held my daughter's photography to the same standard as my own, she would quickly become discouraged and quit. That's why I almost never photograph the same subjects that she does. If I do, I try to do it from a wildly different vantage point so that she doesn't try to compare our work. When the time comes that SHE start to make comparisons, it'll be time to start talking to her about composition and light. But not until.

What John is describing sounds a lot like what I'm trying to do with my daughter: interest the kids in KAP; let them get that thrill of seeing the first aerial photograph THEY made; provide them with the knowledge that they can start to think in terms of seeing the world at some height other than four feet off the ground. At the same time, they get to see how thinking in these terms gives them a unique perspective that's useful for a particular application of KAP: archaeology.

This is also what I'm trying to do with the community KAP project I'm working on. I've been photographing the garden at the local middle school for the last several years. The teachers who coordinate work at the garden use the photos to plan out future plantings, irrigation, etc. Now a second school has approached me about doing the same thing for their garden. Unfortunately I don't have time to do an adequate job at both, so I'm trying to put together a package of tools that the students themselves can use to make their own aerial photos. I'm taking John's approach here. The results won't be something that would hang in a gallery, but they'll be just as good for garden planning as anything I've done. And since it's the students themselves doing it, that's even better. And when the time comes that THEY compare their work to mine, that's when to start talking to them about fine points of KAP. But not until.

What Martin is describing sounds a lot like what I'm trying to do with my own photography: gain better skill and control of the process so that when I put a camera in the air, I can make the specific photograph I'm after with just the right light, shadow, vantage point, composition, etc.

This is also what I had to do when I photographed Ahu a`Umi, a historical site here on the Island of Hawaii. The archaeologists who planned and coordinated the project had particular photographs they needed in order to complete their work. A haphazard approach would never have produced the data they needed. There was some miscommunication about necessary features on the ground in order to make the most of the data, but otherwise we stuck to a well-described set of guidelines for the photo sets we made. In this case I used Martin's approach. Though in my case I was the one being brought in and given guidelines, not the other way 'round.

Both of these are community KAP projects. And both John's and Martin's approaches are valid. It really depends on the purpose of the community project in question. So I hope this discussion continues, and continues to expand the way it has in the previous two posts.

Tom

This discussion really inspired me over the weekend-- I worked a lot of these thoughts into a post at the PBS IdeaLab-- with special reference to the great work of the awesome Lothians!

thanks all!

http://www.pbs.org/idealab/2013/01/mapping-with-kites-in-the-age-of-drones024.html

Oh my...and I have submitted my outline proposal already!

The links are great..keep them coming!

In reply to Martin I need to get a few things straight here.

1. Hopefully I'll be working with 10-12 year olds to impart the personal and collective sense of achievement in making a photomap from KAP. The goal is a simple one: you get to see the ground up close where you live and get a new perspective of the landscape you live in!

There is fun to be had flying kites, building rigs and picavets etc. and I hope to do this as a group activity hitting some basic science topics along the way.

2. This is not an archaeology project (yes I know all of the world and ..all of human history is... ) but this is about community and landscape. As I intend to get school kids to do this I want each group to record seasonal change in 4 passes over the same square. The project is as much about the doing as the getting so I have set the bar low.

3. There is no reason community KAP Image resolution and quality should not be as good as possible and my job will be to make sure this is the case. I don’t believe screen dumps from Google earth or standard APs are anywhere near the resolution you get from KAP for habitat recording. The whole point is that we fly lower and see more! G earth is a good starting point for the lesson plans though.

3. As a qualified surveyor and cartographer, I know a group of kids won't be able to meet professional standards but the significance of self captured images of your own territory achieved by wind power is memorable and empowering. When it comes to community projects I believe there is a place in the world for both the professional and the amateur. If all we get out of this is a good group experience it will have been worthwhile- sure I can take the photos but, on this project I'm here to enable not to dictate!

B

http://billboyheritagesurvey.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/the-simon-harbord-silly-putty-sp-rig/ is the beginings of the AutoKAP rig I intend to use.


Should be fun!

Glad you spotted it Simon, it's sketched from the YouTube clip posted by Mathew above: I can't find any decent drawings of it!

Thanks for answering the questions but I have one more:

Which makes the best frame work aluminium or plastic?

10mins rum time is excellent. I'm really looking forward to getting this working- you never know it might change the way I KAP altogether!

Can't find Silly Putty eggs for love nor money round here..they are even being sold on eBay as 'vintage' toys now!

Both aluminium and plastic work fine Bill, as you doubtless know there is a trick to bending Aluminium without cracking. I get strip plastic and aluminium from B&Q. If you just use the term "putty" and limit your search to toys and games, you should manage just fine: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Other-Toys-Games-/1039/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Putty some of them are wrong type, ie "farting" or "slimy" !!!
Simon

Has anyone considered mechanical egg and cooking (ie 60minute type for limited pan ;o)) timers.
I have ordered a couple to rotate the 808:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330697708630?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330860537617?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648

If they are not appropriate, at least my cooking and eggs may improve!

One proposal that has 'taken off' is the idea of giant line laundry as an eye-catcher for events. I need to get prices in for a big lifter, line and ground anchors for a 50m eel! I'd like to get him made in the UK and fly if off a big Gomberg flowform (they look sooo cool). Anybody got ideas of who could make me one?

As posted in the other thread:
http://arch.ced.berkeley.edu/kap/discuss/index.php?p=/discussion/3594/hd-keychain-cam#Item_52
for a simple technique, HD 808#16D coat hanger cam works fine!

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92XZHEX8rPg&feature=youtu.be (not stabilised, wysiwyg)
Remember to click on the YouTube cogwheel icon to view in HD

Yes, not ideal for mapping (but better than Google!) and perfectly OK for first sweep archaeological prospection, giving kids an easy method to do real archaeological investigations.

Test build of Simon's rig is progressing:

http://billboyheritagesurvey.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/harbord-sp-rig-build-1/

Looks like this:

John,
If you strip these down they could be very handy, let us know how you get on: I'm having a right lark getting the Silly Putty to work!

B

Hi Andrew,
I was rather hoping that it rotated in a shorter time.
This rather limits its use for KAP....the search is back on...there should be some 5min ones!
I like the clean lines of the timer.

The trick for bending (most grades of) aluminium without breaking is in heating/annealing it first. Very gently, it doesn't need to glow bright red. That'll make it nicely soft and pliable.

Bill, from your pictures you used a different approach to the silly putty bearing to that which I used in the videos so I can't advise you there, though I'm not surprised you are having problems, the "sleeve method" used in Cris' silly putty timer is not the same or appropriate to the continuous required rotation of the AutoKAP rig. Suggest you use a flat bar/ strip running through the bearing. It allows you to pack more putty in.

Paul, as for bending ally strip, I've never needed to anneal. The secret for me has been to support the work tightly in a vice about 1/16" from the bend point and make the bend in one swift move. Don't pause even for a second. This doesn't give the metal a chance to work harden. If you stop and restart, it will almost certainly crack.
Simon

Bill - following on from Simon's post, there's a detailed description of how to make a silly putty timer (actually a dethermaliser for model gliders) here and here. The good thing about the design is that it doesn't leak. It may need some scaling up to last long enough for KAP - I think as described it runs out in a few minutes.

Another mechanical timer:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130364162243?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

15mins, 85g.

Thanks Sue, I know Gomberg are the tops for this sort of thing but I really think we should keep it local if we can!

email sent.

Silly putty rig now turning nicley fom 8mins at about 5.5 rpm...



B